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INFO-ATARI16 Digest         Tue, 14 Nov 89       Volume 89 : Issue 651

Today's Topics:
                             Languages!!!
                    PortFolio as a marketing aid ?
                         Re : I/O Redirection
                            SH 204 Upgrade
   Time to create comp.sys.atari.flames (was Re: RE: Vapourware!!!)
                            Various topics
                  What does the TT Buy me?? (3 msgs)
                                WordUp
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 89 16:28:32 GMT
From: thelake![e-mail]  (Steve Yelvington)
Subject: Languages!!!

In article <[e-mail]>,
     [e-mail] (Steve Rehrauer) writes ...

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Eric
 Hobbs) writes:
>>     I am looking into trying to learn a new computer language,
>>but I really don't know which one to try out. The only things that
>>I must have is a language that is in the Public Domain or it is
>>Shareware (I'm a poor college student!), the language must support
>>graphics and sound without too much hassle, and it _MUST_ be able
>>to run on a 520STfm with 512K and a 360K SS/DD disk drive. Well
>>that narrows it down, doesn't it. I don't really want to learn
>>68000 assembly language and I only know BASIC and a little bit of
>>Logo. (Pretty Limited, Huh?).
>>     You guys and gals are my last hope! Save me from expensive
>>languages and ST BASIC!!!!!ARRRRGH!
>
>If you just want a better BASIC, I'd suggest GFA BASIC.  I've never used it,
>but most people seem to like it well enough (certainly can't get much worse
>than ST BASIC, eh?).  I _believe_ the interpreter is (or was?) public domain?
>At least, I'd swear I saw a copy of the GFA BASIC interpreter on a STart
>magazine disk last year...

Not public domain. Public domain is a legal term that does not mean what
most computer users seem to think it means.

Antic (the magazine and software publishers) took over distribution of GFA
BASIC about the time GFA 3.0 was released, and disposed of the old version
by making it part of the STart disk.

>Your system memory & disk size is probably going to encourage you to use an
>interpreter (of whatever language), since they tend to be smaller than a
>compiler for the equivalent language.

(stuff about Personal Pascal omitted)

>All of the other ST compilers I've had occasion to use require either more
>memory than 512K, or another drive, or a hard-drive, or all three to be
>useable & relatively pain-free.  Really, you may want to shop around for
>another SS drive at the very least.  Or, better yet, upgrade to 1M of
>memory and use a big RAM disk.

Mark Johnson's shareware C compiler, which is available from the
archive-server@panarthea if you can get it to answer your mail, was
developed on a one-drive 520ST. The C function library is not very
complete, but the GEM bindings are pretty good. It's a reasonable first
compiler for a student.

A second disk drive is well worth the investment, though.

   -- Steve Yelvington, up at the lake in Minnesota
  ... pwcs.StPaul.GOV!stag!thelake!steve             (UUCP)

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 89 15:12:14 GMT
From: mcsun!sunic!tut!utacs![e-mail]  (Markku M?enp??)
Subject: PortFolio as a marketing aid ?

I think that PortFolio is an easy and profitable way to
make Atari Corp. known in the businessworld.

I overheard a discussion in the HiTech-exhibition few weeks
ago. One (business) man said to the other when the were at
the Atari boot : " See (pointing at the ST with MegaScreen,
which had a complex CAD-drawing on it), there's your games
machine ". They had come to look at the PortFolio and they
saw an Atari ST which didn't look like a games machine.

Now, if Atari is going to enter USA (no more flames please),
Atari has to spend tons of money (real marketing needs it).
PortFolio smoothens this process (and brings money too). I
see it happen also in the UK. Atari UK had recently two full
page ads (in PCW), one of which had PortFolio, the other
Atari PC-range. No ST ads. It looks to me that Atari tries
to shed it's games machine reputation away. Hope it succeeds.

By the way, now that I have read few books of economics, I
understand much better Atari. It's a tough world out there.

MM.

PS. No flames please and please let's stop bashing TT.

_____________________________________________________
! Markku M?enp?? ! University of Tampere (Finland)  !
_____________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 89 23:44:48 GMT
From: mcsun!ukc!newcastle.ac.uk!turing![e-mail]  (Computer Society)
Subject: Re : I/O Redirection

It should be done something like this :-


     handle = Fopen/Fcreate ("filename", WRITE)        Obvious
     Fforce (1, handle)                                Ditto
     Pexec (kiddy)                                     Call child
     Fforce (1,1)                                      Reset stdout
     Fclose (handle)                                   Close file



Hope this solves the problem. I think there might be a more elegant way of
resetting stdout, though. However, Fforce does the job.


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
|     The University Of Newcastle-Upon-Tyne Computer Society         |
|                     EMAIL: [e-mail]                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: 13 Nov 89 21:11:39 GMT
From: trwrb![e-mail]  (root)
Subject: SH 204 Upgrade

I want to upgrade my 20 meg SH 204 harddrive to about 40 meg.  I hoped I
could do this by simply replacing the Drive Mechanism, HOWEVER,
my drive mechanism is a Tandom TM362 and I can not find the information I need.
What are by options?

   * Should I install a 40 meg Tandom hard drive?  Where can I find a 40 meg
 Tandom?
   * Can I install a Seagate drive?  Which models?  Will I need more parts?
   * Can I daisy chain the SH 204?  Will I need different software?

I am planing on buying the Spectre GCR and I want to have sufficient harddrive
for the GCR.

Thank You,
Gregory Gibson

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 89 18:28:47 GMT
From: sjsca4![e-mail]  (Greg Wageman)
Subject: Time to create comp.sys.atari.flames (was Re: RE: Vapourware!!!)

Opinions expressed are the responsibility of the author.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>Anthony Lapadula states:
>
>>(1)  I do resent being told in late '85 that my 1040ST would indeed
>>be able to use the Blitter, which, of course, was due out RSN.  Don't
>>know if I should blame my dealer or Atari, but the example stands.
>
>Sam Tramiel, President of Atari Corp promised, on a TV show called something
>like "the Computer Show" that all STs would have a blitter upgrade made
>available...    something like a year later, Atari finally admitted the lie,
>and made the excuse that the FCC wouldn't let them do it...

I'm getting really disgusted with the endless stream of message like
this one appearing in this group.  I've seen hardly a single message
with anything like technical content, tips, hints, programming help,
etc.  Perhaps it's time to creat comp.sys.atari.gripes or
comp.sys.atari.flames...

There is quite a long way between a company stating an intention to
(attempt to) provide something, and an actual product offering.  If
you've any experience in the Real World (tm), Mr. Retelle, you'd know
that in this imperfect world we must work in, sometimes things prove
technically infeasable.

Sam Tramiel isn't an engineer.  The only thing he could be faulted for
is making a statement before checking with his technical people about
its feasability.  Even then, he might have been told it was
technically possible, but his engineers didn't think of the FCC
certification issue.  Atari isn't the first, and won't be the last
corporation to have sales or marketing promise something that
engineering couldn't deliver for reasons that didn't become evident
until later.

The 520 and 1040 case designs are very RF-leaky.  It was because of
this that they were sold in the US without the RF modulator: they
simply couldn't pass the FCC Certification test with a modulator.  My
understanding is that the 1040 is very close to violating the
emissions standard.  Adding a blitter to the design would require
re-certification, and would not pass.  It is not surprising to anyone
with a little bit of electronics knowledge that retrofitting another
processor into a design may cause that design to exceed some parameter
like RF emissions.

Atari addressed this problem when they designed the Mega STs.  The
sealed case design allows much better control of RF emissions than
does the vented design of the 520's and 1040's.  The Megas are FCC
certified with 4 megabytes of RAM, and with blitters.  If you want a
blitter, Mr. Retelle, buy a Mega ST, which were engineered with them
in mind.

Is it just me, or are others in this group tired of reading postings
that sound like little children throwing tantrums because mommy didn't
give the toy she promised?  "But you SAAAAAID I could have it!  You
PROMMMISED!  Waaaah!"

Grow up, will you?

Copyright 1989 Greg Wageman     DOMAIN: [e-mail]
Schlumberger Technologies       UUCP:   ?uunet,decwrl,amdahl?!sjsca4!greg
San Jose, CA 95110-1397         BIX: gwage  CIS: 74016,352  GEnie: G.WAGEMAN
        Permission granted for not-for-profit reproduction only.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 89 15:04 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Various topics

REPLIES TO VARIOUS SUBJECTS:

1). From "Bob Marley" (address given as BAILEYS%.... in digest no
     625- RE: Tech Specialties Catalog.

    I had a bad experience with Tech Specialties on a disk drive kit.
    Colleagues of mine have had bad experiences with deleiveries of
    "Tower cases".  I would not buy anything from them.  Some maga-
    zines no longer accept their advertising.
    They failed to deliver their products in a timely manner and then
    failed to support them once delivered.

2). To "Marty" with the boot problem - The symptoms you describe almost
    always go away when you replace a defective .ACC file with a good
    copy.  You may also be experiencing marginal reading ability from
    your disc drive.  Strip away all .ACC's and start over.  Autoboots
    can also cause this problem.  Strip them out and reload them
    on at a time until you find the one that causes the problem.  Also
    make sure that your machine has been turned off long enough to clear
    RAM.

3) Request for Uniterm on Disc - Get hold of a copy of Current Notes
    Magazine from your local store.  Uniterm is in their PD library.
    If it is not listed in the latest issue just check with the
    publisher at the address given in the magazine.  I think the disk
    number is around 302.

4). To Mustafa Thamer:  There are a couple of decent command shells.
    The one I use most often is DO_IT! from QMI.  In the PD world
    there is GULAM (look for it in the NET World) for those who
    insist on unix-like obscurity.  There are a couple of simpler
    ones like PCOMMAND available from Current Notes.




------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 89 15:22:14 GMT
From: asuvax!hrc!force![e-mail]  (Richard E. Covert)
Subject: What does the TT Buy me??

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Steve
 Rehrauer) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard E. Covert)
 writes:
> [ "Why buy a TT/P?" ]
> >What has happened to Atari Corp?? why can't they design and produce a new
> >machine as nice as the ST was back in 1985?? The ST beat other computers
> >hands down in 1985. I wish the TT could do the same in 1990!!
>
>     Richard, I humbly suggest that what you seem to want, and what I myself
>     wouldn't mind having, is an ST emulator for the Amiga.  Think about it.
>     You want plug-in CPU upgrades (Amiga can do).  You want multitasking
>     (Amiga can do).  You want slots & a more standard bus (A2000 can do;
>     didn't C= design the A2000 with some slots that accept PC cards?).  You
>     want better graphics (well, C= continues to improve their graphics chips,
>     and with an A2000 you can buy a PC Targa board if you need something
>     better).  Outline screen fonts?  Well, I don't know of any box in the
>     general ST/Amiga/Mac price-range that does that (though I'm sure I'll
>     be "gently corrected" if I'm wrong ;-).
>
>     As far as I can tell from your many previous postings, the only real
>     reason you have (or that any of us have, probably) for wanting to stick
>     with an Atari-brand machine is the (possibly substantial) investment
>     you've made in software.
>
> --
> >>"Aaiiyeeee!  Death from above!"<< | Steve Rehrauer, [e-mail]
>    "Flee, lest we be trod upon!"    | The Apollo Computer Division of H.P.


Actually, the MAIN reason that I still like my STs (yes, I have two and I still
use both of them) is that the GEM interface is still better than anything that
I can buy for an IBM PC clone.

I just bought the current issue of the (US) magazine COMPUTER LANGUAGE, November
1989. It dealt with the various multitasking OSes and windowing packages
available for the IBM PCs. and it was a very discouraging magazine. It appears
that PCs (even 80386 and 80486) are still stumbling around the 640K barrier
imposed by the original IBM PC/XT. So, there are few good Graphical User
Interfaces available for the IBM PCs. Oh, there are lots of windowing (single
tasking, single user) packages,but they are are unique and require learning
their library functions. There is NO standard GUI Desktop for IBM PCs
similiar to the Mac or GEM.

Now, I need to research the availability of UNIX/X Windows for IBM PCs.
COMPUTER LANGAUGE had verry little to say about UNIX; it was strictly MS DOS.
If UNIX with X windows are becoming more popular then I will seriously
consider buying an IBM PC clone.

I really enjoy the GEM interface. I am writing some programs now with GEM
interfaces to them. My biggest problem right now is that I have an early,
buggy, version of HiSoft's WERCS (distributed by Michtron in the US). WERCS
keeps trashing my HRD file once I develope a BIG RSC file. I have asked
Michtron on GEnie (well just last night) about how to upgrade WERCS. I was
informed that there is a newer version of WERCS which doesn't crash. My WERCS
is version 1.68 Dated October 28 1988.

Anyway, what I want in a computer is SPEED and a Good User Interface. What I
expect from a Computer Maker is variety and CHOICE and later Support. And that
is was is lacking from Atari.

Rich Covert

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 89 19:33:03 GMT
From: [e-mail]  (R'ykandar Korra'ti)
Subject: What does the TT Buy me??

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Thanasis Mitsolides)
 writes:
>I Assume you haven't heard of Microsoft windows or Desqview for the PCs.
>It takes less that $1000 of hardware to multitask DOS using a graphical
>environment and virtual memory (of sorts).
     Desqview has about the same amount of support that CP/M does. Doesn't
count.
     And Microsoft is saying that Windows 3.0 (the Wowzer-Bang Gee-Wiz Update
That Will Make Windows Really Neat And Worth Using) will break all current
Windows applications. No, I'm not making this up. Software will break.
FIXING it will be semi-trivial - but try explaining that to all the people
who purchased Windows applications expecting them to work from version to
version.
     Personally, if Microsoft really does release an incompatible version
of Windows, I think that'll kill the market. (This is also why WordPerfect
has not been doing anything about Windows, I understand; I'm told they found
out about it already and decided just to wait for Windows 3 than waste their
time on software that'll be de facto dead in six months to a year.)
                                      So very, very happy I don't own a Clone,
                                                    - R'ykandar.
--
| R'ykandar Korra'ti, Editor, LOW ORBIT | [e-mail] | CIS 72406,370 |
| Elfinkind, Unite! | [e-mail] | PLink: Skywise | QLink: Bearclaw |

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 89 17:16:00 GMT
From: hp-sdd!apollo![e-mail]  (Steve Rehrauer)
Subject: What does the TT Buy me??

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Richard E. Covert)
 writes:
>Tell that the Mac users!! Heck, a MAC SE can be upgraded to a Mac SE/30.
>sure it costs money but you can do it!!

Have you checked out the price?  If I were an SE owner, I'd keep the SE and buy
an SE/30 (the $$ difference between upgrading and buying new isn't all that
 much).
And then I'd have TRUE multitasking... ;-O ;-P ;->

>Why can't Atari LEARN from Apple?? I guess Atari will be synonymous with
>CHEAP in the future!!

Oh, there's a different synonym for them now?  C'mon, Richard -- they've found
their niche and exploit it fairly well.  Don't blame them for not being Apple.
Expect less from Atari; you'll live longer. ;-)

>> Looks like Atari has a very interesting product, if they do bring out
>> Unix for it and ship both in a timely fashion.
>
>Oh come on!! The MacIIci has a 25 MHZ 68030 in it!! The TT will have a 16 MHZ
 68030.
>Which is outdated before it is even on the shelf!!!

Oh give me a break!  There's a rather big price jump between the 16 & 25MHz
 parts.
It sounds like a reasonable trade-off to me.  Assuming it ever gets on the
 shelf,
which is what we're all waiting for, right?

[ Deleted much, much more... ]

Will you and Greg please take your arguments to email?  Those of us who haven't
yet added an entry for "Richard E. Covert" to our kill-files would probably
appreciate it.  Everyone airs their gripes now & then (I plead guilty), but this
IS getting a bit stale...

--
>>"Aaiiyeeee!  Death from above!"<< | Steve Rehrauer, [e-mail]
   "Flee, lest we be trod upon!"    | The Apollo Computer Division of H.P.

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 89 15:30:03 GMT
From: mcsun!sunic!tut!utacs![e-mail]  (Markku M?enp??)
Subject: WordUp

I have three questions to ask :

1.
How can I reach NeoCept (or somebody working there) via
email. I hate to use real mail because it takes so long.
And phoning takes 1.3 $ a minute.

2.
Could somebody mail me the demo of using two columns
in WordUp ?

3.
Has somebody used UltraScript with WordUp ? Any comments ?

Thanks,
        MM.
_____________________________________________________
! Markku M?enp?? ! University of Tampere (Finland)  !
_____________________________________________________

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End of INFO-ATARI16 Digest V89 Issue #651
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